Word on Armin, especially this "If you're assuming something, you're looking for it, and you're probably going to find it".
If I had to play devil's advocate, though, morally ambiguous! or evil!Armin theorists probably get stuck on his recent creepy faces and him learning to manipulate people. To be fair, in a good number of manga these things can be a red flag that indicates some sort of future descent into darkness, but Armin hasn't actually done anything bad yet. Killing that woman to protect Jean is not morally ambiguous at all and all his manipulations were ultimately there to avoid (more) fighting. (Even setting Bertholt off ultimately led to him surviving rather than him having to battle to the death to keep Eren.)
As for Isayama's comments in his talk with Araki: other translators have indicated that he's not worded it as extremely as some translations might sound and that he was actually politely disagreeing on Araki's "birth of a dictator" comment regarding Armin. (From what I heard that's how Japanese fans interpreted it, hence they're not freaking out about it like western fandom.)
But yeah, Armin's been so far unhappy about having to be this way (otherwise he wouldn't talk about them being no longer "good") and whenever there was some action he's been protective and self-sacrificing for the sake of his friends. He might want to be ruthless because he thinks that's what needed to win, but at the same time he is still caring and sensitive. And this is apparently the part around which a good chunk of fandom can't wrap their mind around. Probably because so much media codes manipulativeness as an evil trait, same as accepting the need to kill before the action goes down.
DA agrees entirely with you and the previous anon about Armin. He struggles very consciously with morality versus necessity, more so than any other character who's committed acts of violence.
And this is apparently the part around which a good chunk of fandom can't wrap their mind around. Probably because so much media codes manipulativeness as an evil trait, same as accepting the need to kill before the action goes down.
And because a lot of fans, a lot of people in general, see things in black and white. IMO this fandom would be a lot less wanky if more fans were able to deal with moral ambiguity in fiction.
True, there would be probably less drama. But it's not really anything new. The human mind likes to latch onto easy familiar patterns rather than things that challenge an contradict them. Armin's overall character is like that. He is the kind nerdy type but he is also a pragmatic manipulator. He basically merges two character archetypes which don't overlap often in fiction.
You know, I never understood why that comment about him and Eren 'not being always on the same side' had to mean that Armin is the one who has to 'go bad' (like there's anybody in this manga who can be fully called 'good' - maybe Connie and Sasha?). It could be Eren who crosses the moral event horizon with a nice triple jump while Armin goes "uuuuh dude I am so not sure about this". Eren can be quite bloodthirsty and he throws himself into situations headfirst, while Armin tends to avoid bloodshed if he can and likes to think before he acts.
In this manga there are also plenty of situations arising in which there's more than one choice and neither of them is a "good" choice. Like, think about Eren deciding to trust Levi's squad and not shift, and then, when Levi's squad is annihilated, deciding to go against the plan and shift. He basically was in a situation in which he made two choices, one the opposite of the other, and somehow both were wrong in one way or another. How do you go and judge the "goodness" of a decision like this?
Also seconding the impression that Armin tries hard, but isn't really as ruthless as he tries to be. I remember him telling Jean that victory goes to those who sacrifice everything, but I also remember him uselessly trying to defend a concussed Jean from a Titan when basic logic would dictate that he should leave him behind to be eaten and run like the wind. As much as he likes to talk about being coldly logical and ruthless, when his friends are in danger he's still very much letting his heart do the thinking.
Whoa, that's something I never considered! Who knows? Currently hard to picture, though, unless it is some situation were Eren falls back to his old b/w POV and Armin sees the situation more ambiguously? (Hmmm, maybe about how to deal with someone out of BRAY? Annie is the least likely, but Eren did swear bloody vengeance on BR.)
That situation's the best example, yeah. It also nicely confirms what Armin tells Jean: that in retrospect it's always easy to say we should have done this or that, but no one's clairvoyant, so you can only do what seems "right/smartest" in the present (and the "smartest" not always being the most "merciful" way).
Pretty much how it is. Not surprised that some Jearmin fans make it into a shipping thing - Armin can't seem to let go of/sacrifice Jean and it never even seems to cross his mind.
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(Anonymous) 2014-06-10 09:22 am (UTC)(link)If I had to play devil's advocate, though, morally ambiguous! or evil!Armin theorists probably get stuck on his recent creepy faces and him learning to manipulate people. To be fair, in a good number of manga these things can be a red flag that indicates some sort of future descent into darkness, but Armin hasn't actually done anything bad yet. Killing that woman to protect Jean is not morally ambiguous at all and all his manipulations were ultimately there to avoid (more) fighting. (Even setting Bertholt off ultimately led to him surviving rather than him having to battle to the death to keep Eren.)
As for Isayama's comments in his talk with Araki: other translators have indicated that he's not worded it as extremely as some translations might sound and that he was actually politely disagreeing on Araki's "birth of a dictator" comment regarding Armin. (From what I heard that's how Japanese fans interpreted it, hence they're not freaking out about it like western fandom.)
But yeah, Armin's been so far unhappy about having to be this way (otherwise he wouldn't talk about them being no longer "good") and whenever there was some action he's been protective and self-sacrificing for the sake of his friends. He might want to be ruthless because he thinks that's what needed to win, but at the same time he is still caring and sensitive. And this is apparently the part around which a good chunk of fandom can't wrap their mind around.
Probably because so much media codes manipulativeness as an evil trait, same as accepting the need to kill before the action goes down.
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(Anonymous) 2014-06-10 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)And this is apparently the part around which a good chunk of fandom can't wrap their mind around. Probably because so much media codes manipulativeness as an evil trait, same as accepting the need to kill before the action goes down.
And because a lot of fans, a lot of people in general, see things in black and white. IMO this fandom would be a lot less wanky if more fans were able to deal with moral ambiguity in fiction.
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(Anonymous) 2014-06-10 04:44 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-06-12 11:05 am (UTC)(link)In this manga there are also plenty of situations arising in which there's more than one choice and neither of them is a "good" choice. Like, think about Eren deciding to trust Levi's squad and not shift, and then, when Levi's squad is annihilated, deciding to go against the plan and shift. He basically was in a situation in which he made two choices, one the opposite of the other, and somehow both were wrong in one way or another. How do you go and judge the "goodness" of a decision like this?
Also seconding the impression that Armin tries hard, but isn't really as ruthless as he tries to be. I remember him telling Jean that victory goes to those who sacrifice everything, but I also remember him uselessly trying to defend a concussed Jean from a Titan when basic logic would dictate that he should leave him behind to be eaten and run like the wind. As much as he likes to talk about being coldly logical and ruthless, when his friends are in danger he's still very much letting his heart do the thinking.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2014-06-12 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)That situation's the best example, yeah. It also nicely confirms what Armin tells Jean: that in retrospect it's always easy to say we should have done this or that, but no one's clairvoyant, so you can only do what seems "right/smartest" in the present (and the "smartest" not always being the most "merciful" way).
Pretty much how it is. Not surprised that some Jearmin fans make it into a shipping thing - Armin can't seem to let go of/sacrifice Jean and it never even seems to cross his mind.